Meditation Center, Germany
04 December 2000 am
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] …in the process of bhakti, it seems that this is not spontaneous, so much hard endeavor and natural love is not coming. So why, if love for Krishna is spontaneous, why is it not coming naturally, as one is naturally going towards maya.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] By an example you can understand this. Naturally lauhika chumbak akarsana.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] A magnet attracts iron.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Naturally, but if rust is there on the iron, or it is covered with mud or anything, then magnet cannot attract iron. It is natural, by constitutional position, that magnet will certainly attract iron, but the iron should be pure. If it is not pure, this natural attraction will not come. So rust has come on our constitutional position. The attraction is natural if you are pure. If the soul is pure, then it is natural that spontaneous love certainly will come. It is in his natural position, his natural constitution. But now some worldly desires have come, and that is why it is covered with two things. One is this material body, gross body, and the other is subtle body. If they will go away, oh, natural, spontaneous love is there. That is why a process should be adopted like that adopted by our acaryas, who have spontaneous love for Krishna, like Rupa Gosvami, like Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, like Krishna Himself in the shape of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, always spontaneous love. Have you heard that when He was in Puri, in Gambhira, always "Ha Krishna, Ha Krishna. Where is He?" And sometimes, "Oh, Krishna is here," and He's embracing Him. He is weeping. And if he is serving Krishna in the shape of Radhika, or gopi, you can see spontaneous love, always weeping, always weeping. Rupa Gosvami was the same. You can see Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. How pathetic his life is there, oh, spontaneous love. Sometimes meeting, sometimes separation, both, and this is the symptom of that love. So you will realize this.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] This is inside.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Inside the soul is pure, this potency is there, but this potency is now covered. You will have to take off the cover.
[Guest:] May I ask another question?
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] First you should tell any doubt. Are you satisfied?
[Guest:] Yes. I would like to ask.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] You can argue anything, you can argue, no harm.
[Devotees start to laugh]
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Don't laugh.
[Guest:] This question may be an argument, or maybe a…
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] There are two kinds of arguments. In Gita it has been told that if you want to really know the real thing, then 'tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevayat,' not with jnana [experimental knowledge], but in a very humble way you should ask, "I want to know this and you are qualified. You can remove my doubts. So if I am qualified to hear, please tell me." This is the humble way, and by this you can achieve realization. Otherwise if you are coming to fight without surrendering, I will not reply, because my time will be wasted. This is the thing.
[Guest:] I want to understand it more deeper and therefore I would like to ask about…
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] One thing more. You cannot realize until you will be in that process. One thing also. If Krishna will come Himself, and He will want to satisfy you, He cannot.
[Guest:] He cannot?
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] He cannot, if the dust is there. Unless you are humble like Arjuna, and He will not tell all these things to Duryodhana. Duryodhana may ask, and His answer is there in Mahabharata. "I know you, but I cannot tell you these things. Because you are acting in such a way, you have made it impossible for me to tell." There is a sloka there. That is why we should be humble to hear all these things, and then really you will realize, very soon, very soon. Go on.
[Guest:] By this covering of dust, I think it is meant this material body.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Material body has been made by the desires you have. This is how the gross and subtle bodies have manifested. It is due to our thoughts, desires, unwanted things. We wanted this to taste this world. And that is why Krishna's maya gave it, in the shape of gross and subtle body.
[Guest:] And how can I understand the spiritual body? Because I think it is very important that there is a spiritual body.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] By serving sadhus, by sat-sanga, by the association, gradually your knowledge will be developed, and your unwanted things, desires will go away, and then you are realized. Certainly you will realize it. But you will have to come in that process.
[Guest:] Can you describe a little bit the spiritual body, or your experiences with this body, for our readers.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] I can describe, but there is a question. There is a mango, it is sweet. Honey is also sweet. Can you tell how the mango is sweet and how the honey is sweet, what is the difference, can you tell? [devotees laugh] Very difficult, very difficult. There are some things I can tell, Rupa Gosvami can tell, Vedas have told, Mahabharata has told, Srimad-Bhagavata has told, Caitanya-caritamrta has told. But to express it and to make it realized to others is very difficult until they reach that stage, then easily they can realize it. If I will give, "Oh, you want to see what is the difference, oh, this is honey and this is mango. You should taste and you should see, compare", then by experience you will know, but by words you cannot tell.
There is something about Krishna and His love, spontaneous love. Like this. Mahaprabhu has told this. Narada told to Vyasa, but he could not understand and he told that, "Oh, now you should do experience." And then he saw by bhakti-yoga who is Krishna, how is Krishna, how sweet pastimes are there, and then he realized. In Gita or anywhere it has been told. By words.
nayam atma pravacanena labhyo
na medhasa na bahuna srutena
yam evaisa vrnute tena labhyas
tasyaisa atma vivrnute tanum svam
"The Supreme Lord is not obtained by expert explanations, by vast intelligence, or even by much hearing. He is obtained only by one whom He Himself chooses. To such a person, He manifests His own form."
(Mundaka Upanisad 3.2.3)
[Guest:] Another question, is there difference between man and women, or is this difference illusion? What do you say?
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] He's asking if there is a difference between man and women, or is this difference coming from illusion.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] In transcendental world there are moods of ladies and male. Krishna is the only male there and all are like female, and the highest class is female. The body of Krishna in a separate manifestation is Srimati Radhika, and the love between that male Krishna and female Radhika is very tasteful. This is called mahabhava, and this is our goal. That is why we see that in this world, wife and husband, lover and beloved, they love each other. And if that love is sincere, for the whole life they can maintain this. But in this world it is absurd. But in that world it is real. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu discovered this unnatojjvala upapati-bhava [the elevated extramarital amorous mood]. Like in this world, if anyone loves his beloved, or her beloved, it is very tasteful. But if you can change the object of your love, and thinking within yourself that "I'm gopi. I'm female like gopis, and Krishna is my beloved," very soon you can change the object of your love. By the process of our Rupa Gosvami you can change it. If you are not adopting that process, you cannot have this in millions and millions of births. This is the thing. It is very tasteful, as Caitanya Mahaprabhu discovered.
Pundarik Prabhu: One time Gurudeva explained that this just like in a drama. In a drama, there are so many players who are acting different roles. There may be a play where only those who are male are performing, but one male may take the dress of a female, and then he's acting as a female, and the other males in the drama act with that person as if he's female. So similarly in this world, due to our impressions from our past life and our desires, whatever desire we have at the time of death, we may attain a male body or a female body, but the soul as such, the spirit, is neither male nor female, but it is an energy of Krishna, and it has a very special mood which Srila Gurudeva described, that is to love Krishna.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] In this world male and female forms are here. This is because this world is a reflection of the spiritual world. The original forms are Radha and Krishna, and They are reflected in this world. So male and female here, it is not a true thing, it is only a reflection of the spiritual world. It is apparent.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] For making it easy to love Krishna, Krishna has created this world as a shadow of the spiritual world, a reflection. In this world, very soon attachment comes for a lady or for a male, together. It is natural. But it is a reflection of that world. So we can go there very easily by the process Caitanya Mahaprabhu told. In this way you should think yourself that Krishna is my beloved. In all the mantras it has been told, everywhere the same thing. In Upanisads, Gita, Bhagavata, everywhere. So we can follow this, but we should do it with a special bona fide guru who has realized something, or everything. If he has realized fully, then he is uttama-maha-bhagavata, and if he is not fully realized then he has some semblance of rati [loving attachment]. He can give you something. This is a very deep subject matter.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] So Krishna, He made this attraction between male and female in this world? Or to make it easy for us to go to that world?
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] For example. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu took it, this process. Why not by this? And so in Vedas Gopala-mantra, or all mantras have been given, and they are very powerful. Krishna has invested His whole power in these mantras, and by chanting "Mara Mara Marama Rama Rama" Valmiki achieved that position. Sukadeva Gosvami also, describing the pastimes of Goloka Vrindavana, rasa and all these things. These are not of this world, these are of Goloka Vrindavana dhama. He was explaining to Pariksit Maharaja, and Pariksit Maharaja was totally absorbed in that, and he wanted to be a gopi, to serve Krishna. Vyasadeva also explained like this, and Narada. This is a very easy process but you will have to give up something. What thing? That lust.
[Guest:] Okay. In the interests of my reader also, and in the discussion of cultural philosophies, in India it is also very popular this Saivism. Believing in Siva, or worshiping Siva and sakti. What differences or similarities do you see between the relation between Siva and sakti, and Radha-Krishna, and also between the devotees and their Goddess, Gods.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] What he's telling?
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] He's asking the question that in India the worship of Siva and sakti is very popular. So he wants to know what is the difference between relation of Siva and sakti, and the relation between Radha and Krishna. Is there some difference, or are there some similarities? This is the first question. And then the second question is, are there some differences or some similarities between those who worship Siva and sakti, and those who worship Radha-Krishna?
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Oh, there are three kinds of sastra in India. Tamasika, rajasika and sattvika [in the modes of ignorance, passion and goodness]. And more than those is nirguna [beyond the modes of material nature]. There are so many, Brahmanda Purana and all others. There are Siva Purana, Markendeya Purana, they are tamasika puranas. And Brahmanda and all others are rajasika. Some are sattvika, and Srimad-Bhagavata is nirguna purana.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] Visnu Purana and Padma Purana, are they sattvika puranas?
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Hmm. And Srimad-Bhagavatam is nirguna pramana [an evidence beyond the modes of nature]. In this there is no clash, but it is for the person, devotees, according to their standard, qualities. Because those who are absorbed in tamasika, tamas, they cannot understand nirguna, they cannot understand sattvika. So they can do some fire sacrifice, they can take meat and some things also, intoxication they can do, but they should give up these things and come to rajasika. And rajasika should come gradually to sattvika, and sattvika should come to nirguna. For this Vyasadeva has compiled all these things. So in India, very few, very rare, are of nirguna thought, mood. Some see that Sankara [Siva] is himself God, himself Supreme Personality of Godhead. And his sakti, Siva, Durga, Kali and all, are his sakti. But in sattvika and nirguna puranas, in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Upanisads, Sankara has been explained like the sakti of Krishna, that Sankara is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This idea that Siva is God is for tamasika. That you should cut anything, anyone, and give it to Sankara, and he will give you a boon to be very high class of rich person, wealthy, and you can conquer the whole world. But really this thing is only for tamasika persons, not for a high standard. So in Srimad-Bhagavatam it has been told that Sankara is nothing but the sakti, or power, of Krishna. So he has been told to be like Gopisvara Mahadeva, Gopisvara, gopi in Vrindavana, and he can give you the right direction, that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He can help you like your guru, sakti. Vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] Siva is a great vaisnava, it is written in Srimad-Bhagavatam.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Vaisnava means from Visnu, the servant, eternal servant of Visnu. Visnu is Krishna. So Sankara is not told anywhere in sattvika and nirguna puranans, or in Upanisads or in Vedas, that he is Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is himself the power of Krishna. So we think like this, and thus very easily we can reconcile all these things. So here Sankara is like a gopi, or his power. His power is of three kinds. Sankara, in transcendental world, always serving like gopis and other things, with Rama as Hanuman. And when he comes in this world then he's Sankara in Kailash, and he is always chanting "Rama Rama Krishna Krishna Krishna" and giving salvation. But you know Ravana, Kamsa, Jarasandha, they were worshipers of Siva, but they all were destroyed by Krishna or Rama. You know Ravana? He always used to worship Sankara. Ravana in India.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] Ravanaa;
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Oh, Ravanaa you know. We don't pronounce the last 'a'. But Ravana was always worshiping Sankara. But Sankara told, "I cannot help. Why you stole away Sita, and you want to enjoy her. She's my worshipable. So I will not help you. I will help Rama to.
[Madhava Maharaja:] Kill you.
[Devotee:] Defeat you.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] And thus Hanuman burnt Lanka, and wanted to please Sita. "Come on my back and I will take you to Rama."
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] Hanuman is one form of Siva. So though Ravana was worshiping Siva, Siva himself, like Hanuman, came there and burnt everything.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Siva himself became Hanuman and he destroyed Lanka and destroyed Ravana. So this strong example is quite fit here. So we should try to know who is Sankara, and how he is worshiping as a sakti, power of Krishna or Rama. Then there will be no doubt, confusion.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] Gurudeva is explaining that if you worship Lord Siva, as a devotee of Krishna, then he will help in attaining Krishna. And if you worship Lord Siva as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he himself can destroy you.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] Sankara himself. Though Ravana was worshiper of Sankara, Sankara himself became Hanuman and destroyed Lanka and everything. He killed his all sons, because he was against Rama. Kamsa was also like this. He used to worship Ramesvara Mahadeva, Siva. You know? And he wanted to kill Krishna, that he made a plan to kill Krishna and Baladeva from Vraja, and that plan was to kill Krishna with the help of Caruna, Mustika and all other powerful wrestlers. But Krishna jumped, He killed the demons and He also dragged Kamsa, and He jumped up on him and he was killed. "Oh, why you are now dead? I was only jumping. And you are now dead. What should I do?" Understand? If he is not understanding, you should explain.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] Gurudeva is describing how Kamsa was worshiping Lord Siva. Who? Ramesvara Mahadeva, one form of Lord Siva in Mathura in the wrestling arena. So Kamsa invited Krishna and brought Him from Vrindavana to Mathura for a wrestling match. And there Kamsa had so many powerful wrestlers, Canura and Mustika, and others, and a very powerful elephant, Kuvalayapida. The plan was that all of them together would gang up and kill Krishna. But what happened? Krishna threw Kamsa and then He jumped. And when He landed there, Kamsa was already dead. He said, "Oh, I wanted to play with you. You are like My uncle. I wanted to jump in your lap, but you have died, what can I do?"
[Guest:] Oh, he died before.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] And Ramesvara Mahadeva could not help. This is the point.
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] And the deity, Kamsa was worshiping Ramesvara Mahadeva, and Ramesvara Mahadeva was there in ranga, that means in the wrestling arena, watching everything. But when Krishna came and killed all the wrestlers, and then He got Kamsa, and Kamsa also left his body, then what did Lord Siva do?
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] He was smiling, "Oh, very good, very good. Thank you."
[Prema-prayojana dasa:] You can ask more questions tomorrow.
[Srila Narayana Maharaja:] If he wants, I am very happy to. I want that I will try to satisfy you, and thus I want to pull you, [devotees laugh], and take your heart, and bring you in the process that very soon you will have the same love, natural and spontaneous love. I want to help you.